I am not sure what to think about all the advice out there about leaving academia, particularly during the postdoc years. There are many blogs and articles about leaving - how you should do it, why you should, where to look for jobs, how to tailor your CV/resume, etc. - but a question remains to be answered, namely, "Has anyone actually done it and found a good job?" I have visited many sites of those who have left graduate school/postdoc and found jobs outside of academia, but they (the ones I have seen anyway) all seem to be stuck in a worse situation or job than when they were in academia! There may be a few that have found jobs outside they enjoy, but it is very limited. Where are all the successful, awesome, industry-employed, postdoc-science leavers now? Sure, you can read the odd article about how someone switched 10 or 20 years ago and is now a scientist at NASA or something, but that is the worst case of misinformation for the current job force (almost as bad as saying the academic market is the same as it was 15 years ago).
Now, assuming that most recent postdoc leavers or would-be leavers (in science) have not found good employment outside academia, what gives us the right (I have done this also) to push people to leave? Do we want to comfort our agony with more company? How are we qualified to give this information, provided we haven't made a claim on a good job outside academia? I realize that staying in the postdoc world may also have emotional problems as well, but I am starting to think that being healthy emotionally is not necessarily achieved solely by leaving your postdoc.
This all comes as I have been re-evaluating my industrial/other job search. Last year, I felt great thinking that I could find a job other than a professorship and I was comforted that others were forging through the same mess I was. At the time, and I realize it was my fault, I construed the information I gleaned from others' experience as advice and confirmation that my decision was not foolhardy. It would only be a matter of time (a few months) to get a decent job, or so I thought (as did others giving advice/experiences on leaving), and that has slowly decayed into another lost year. Again, given my (and others') poor experience, how do we justify instructing future postdoc leavers? It's kind of like teaching someone to drive a car without ever having been behind the wheel yourself.
Granted, blogging is about conveying your experiences and feelings, and I guess many blogs out there aren't necessarily about directing the next generation per se, but it often comes off as advice. What I am trying to say, though not so eloquently, is: There is no guidance for those in our particular situation, and though we can take solace in recognizing we are not alone, being accompanied on the journey does not mean you are following the right route.
Do you have a different experience than mine? Am I missing something that you might be aware of? Like always, I look forward to your input.
Disclaimer: This may be nothing more than a cry for help in finding 'successful' (whatever that means) science postdoc leavers, and I am not criticizing anyone in particular.
The hardest part about job hunting during a postdoc is the uncertainty of not knowing when a job is going to come along. Doing a postdoc is really only a step above being unemployed - you have a job and get a (meager) paycheck, but that job will not last forever and the job hunt is tremendously difficult, especially while working 60 hours/week.
ReplyDeleteBut there are good jobs out there - it just may take a couple years to find one. I did a 3.5 year postdoc, started applying to industry in my second year, right after receiving a two-year fellowship award. Took me a year and a half to find a position and I left the fellowship with five months to spare. And leaving academia for industry is the best career decision I ever made. I do research and get paid reasonably well for the work that I do. The hours are similar to a postdoc - I take a lot of stuff home, but the postdoc actually prepared me well for it.
I think your only miscalculation is how long it would take to get a job. The job market for PhDs is horrible right now - not enough demand and far too much supply. If you're persistent enough, you can get a job, but you have to be realistic about the time frame.
I will say also, if you really want out, don't limit yourself to just research jobs. I was applying to medical writing positions, consulting positions, grant review administration - anything and everything because I knew I wanted out of the postdoc. Research is what I would have preferred, but if I had been offered a medical writing position with a decent salary, benefits and a good commute, I would have jumped all over it at the time.
I was lucky in that this job came along, but I was more than willing to take anything I was offered with a good salary and work/life balance. Maybe you should consider other options to industry/academia?
You are right, I am starting to realize that it might take a while (much longer than I expected) to get a job. I have considered basically everything and even those that are not research or science based but had links (sort of) to the things I have done. In that sense, I don't think I have restricted myself to only jobs that relate to my field in industry and academia. I am completely in the same spot as you were regarding what I would take - I think anything right now with a decent salary and work/life balance would be great!
DeleteThree things:
ReplyDelete*@7:27 AM is correct. The job market is really, really bad now - in academia and outside of it. It took me 2.5 years to find a post-academic job starting in 2003.
*Many, many people have wonderful post-academic lives and careers. They just aren't blogging.
*Many post-academics continue to grieve for the dream of academia, even years after leaving and even though they really do love their current post-academic lives. It's all part of the process.
1) It seems I am noticing a trend here which has only recently become apparent to me: it is going to take a long time to get something. Wow, 2.5 years! I guess I was hoping I could be a data point on the early side of the distribution...
Delete2) I completely agree, but it is unfortunate that those who have made it out don't tell us about their experiences. I suppose one of the main reasons for blogging is to try and work through tough times, especially in terms of careers, and then when things get better - who needs blogging?
3) Ah, the process. Too bad we couldn't wake up the next day to a brand new life, without former problems.
I agree with your presentation of this quandary - it should be discussed. I have found a government job outside of academia after 5 years of post-doc (ecology), and I'm not sure whether to take it. Part of me is happy to have a great job opportunity when they are hard to come by, and the other part feels like I'm giving up on tenure-track jobs when I'm so close, and taking a job I could have gotten a decade ago. It would be useful to hear the experiences of more recent grads that made the switch on these sorts of blogs. I know that no story can substitute as advice in my particular situation, but they certainly could provide some perspective.
ReplyDeleteThat is definitely a difficult situation, and I know I would feel the same way as I am entering my sixth year of postdoc. When you say that you are close to a tenure-track job, what do you think would change in the next while to get it? I often ask myself, "What would I do in the next year of my postdoc that would ensure that I get a professorship?" Of course, my answer is: "Publish a couple more papers, maybe submit a grant". Does two more papers on the CV make you more competitive at this point? I am not sure about that one...
DeleteBy the way, how long have you been applying for non-academic jobs? Good luck!
I think it depends on what you're looking for. A lot of people leave academia and simply want a job where they can work, and then come home and have time for themselves. It seems as though what you're looking for is an academic job that isn't as hard to get. You're not going to find academia outside of academia, but you might be able to find a job that fulfills you without making you insane.
ReplyDeleteIf your goal is a tenure-track job, then it might be worthwhile to stay in a post-doc and hope for the best, and by sheer force of will, maybe one will come up. But maybe one won't and at some point, you have to decide how much you're willing to take, and begin looking elsewhere, and maybe change/focus your priorities.